ep. 108 - Jennifer Goldman-Wetzler:
Organizational Psychologist & Founder, Alignment Strategies Group
Bio
Dr. Jennifer Goldman-Wetzler is a recognized global leader on how to optimize organizational vitality by solving the unsolvable in organizational life. Her presentations leave audiences highly motivated and equipped with practical tools for taking action and achieving the results they desire.
Jennifer created the extraordinarily popular Columbia University course 'Transforming Conflict from Within' where for the past decade she has taught leaders to successfully face even the most challenging long-term conflicts. The course has been consistently praised by students and faculty for its innovative and transformative approach—and its ability to produce results in situations that previously seemed hopeless at work, at home, and in public life.
Transcript
Kyle Davis: Okay, so with us today we have Jennifer Goldman-Wetzler, she is an organizational psychologist that teaches at Columbia University, as well as the founding principal of the alignment strategies group. She talks a lot about conflict [00:01:00] and mitigating it or accepting it, and a whole bunch of other fun stuff. I don't really want to take it away, so with that being said, Jennifer, welcome, how are you?
Jennifer Goldman-Wetzler:: I'm doing great, thanks Kyle, how are you doing today?
Kyle Davis: Just like I told you earlier, I'm living that dream one day at a time.
Jennifer Goldman-Wetzler:: Excellent, glad to be living it with you.
Kyle Davis: Well, you know it's my world, right? From that kind of brief introduction, I don't like to do these very long introductions because [00:01:30] I want to get a sentiment of how you kind of came about this, and what made you go down this path of study and professorship and everything else. How did you get to where you're at today, and what made you focus on conflict and organizational psychology and all the rest?
Jennifer Goldman-Wetzler:: Well, when people ask me this question, which they invariably do, because I specialize in something that a lot of people try to run away from, which is conflict, and so when they ask [00:02:00] me, there are really a few different ways that I can answer the question. One is to talk about my academic career and consulting business, and the other, which I think is really more telling, is about how I grew up. I'll tell you about my two grandmothers. I grew up a granddaughter of immigrants, so [00:02:30] my father's mother was a refugee from Nazi Europe, and she came to this country telling me, I grew up hearing lots of stories from her about her adventurous, and she told it in a very romantic way, her adventurous, romantic story of escaping from Vienna and going over the hills into Switzerland, where she met my grandfather.
She and [00:03:00] my grandfather eventually ended up in [Sosua 00:03:04], the Dominican Republic, where my father was born, and then after the war ended, they were able to come to New York. I grew up hearing this very romanticized version of this multi-year escape, and it only really hit me when I was in college that this was not only a romantic, adventurous story, this was an escape for survival, a survival story. [00:03:30] Having grown up in that kind of environment, a lot of why I do what I do today is to help make sure that the world is a place where no grandchild needs to grow up hearing stories of survival, and no person has to live it, so that's one reason why I do the work that I do.
The other has to do with my other grandmother, my mother's mother, who grew up on the lower [00:04:00] east side of Manhattan, and had this very kind of elegant way about her. When I was a kid, we would travel in the family car every Sunday to my uncle and aunt's house in Connecticut. I grew up in the Bronx and we would travel to Connecticut, my brother and I in the backseat with my grandmother right in the middle of us, and my mom and dad in the front seat. Invariably, you know it always felt like world war three was going to break out in the car, [00:04:30] and my grandmother was this very gentle, elegant, gentle soul, and all she had to do was say, "[foreign language 00:04:39], quiet quiet," in her very Yiddish way, and we would just all stop, stop yelling at each other, everything would stop.
Then she would tell my brother and me a story. I think it's a combination of the influence of that, of being around her and her presence [00:05:00] that I either have, in some combination from her genes as well as having grown up in that way, that that's how I see myself, that's some of the value that I add when I'm working with clients, is really my presence, my ability to be with them in the midst of some of their pain, their wanting to run away and knowing that they can't. This is true in business settings and in government settings, [00:05:30] and in people's personal lives as well. That's kind of the going way back, how did I get into the work that I'm in. I think as a result of growing up in that way, then I could talk about how I made the choices that I made in my college days and career and graduate school, and all that.
Kyle Davis: Before we get into talking about your studies and stuff like that, when [00:06:00] you're growing up and you hear this romanticized version of what was really something rather horrific, you know I'm thinking of, it's hard to compare when you're talking about running away from the Holocaust and stuff, but when people are talking about the Dust Bowl in Oklahoma, or some other long progressed period of time, and they had like this romanticized tale of it, what is that doing for people who are receiving it for the first time? Is this really just [00:06:30] something where it's just to make the story lighter and easier to consume, or is this more of a way of telling a story so you can take what's most important out of it, instead of focusing much more on what's horrific about it?
Jennifer Goldman-Wetzler:: That's such a good question. I don't know if I can speak in general terms to your question, but I can, through looking at it from my grandmother's perspective, maybe we can [00:07:00] pull something out of there that might be applicable to more than just my grandmother. For her, she was a storyteller, she loved stories, she loved listening to stories, she watched soap operas religiously on TV, and she loved telling stories. This was the way that she, this was the story that she made up. I mean the truth is, we're all storytellers, we all tell ourselves stories, we all tell other people stories about our lives, and this [00:07:30] was the way that she chose to tell the story, which I think speaks to another aspect of who she was.
She was a very optimistic person, and so she took this story that other people might have, and in fact my grandfather very rarely spoke about his experience, and I think for him, it was not all romance, and for him it was terrifying, and so he didn't talk about it very much, but I think one thing that your question suggests is that the reason why [00:08:00] my grandmother told it in that romanticized way is that it was her coping mechanism. I also think the experience for her and for my grandfather were, the experiences they had were different because of their backgrounds and who they left behind. My grandfather left behind his father, who was in ill health, and never ended up seeing him again, and that was not true for my grandmother, for example. I think we tell the stories that we tell [00:08:30] ourselves and others, can help us cope with the world around us.
Kyle Davis: Yeah, I mean I find it just so fascinating, and I've had a lot of discussions about this recently, is that the stories that we tell, and sometimes it's the lies that we tell ourselves or whatever, but you mentioned this coping mechanism, whether it's maybe something didn't go right in business, but still using the facts, you can spin it in a way that it becomes [00:09:00] something more palatable. I guess it was just something on my mind and I wanted to kind of get your take on that. When you take this, and by the way, thank you for taking me back to New York, because I used to live on the lower east side, so I really appreciate that, but when you take the story of your two grandmas and how it kind of shaped who you are today and then you go into your research, past obviously [00:09:30] undergrad and into grad school, what was kind of the pinnacle moment that you said, "Hey, this is what I'm going to focus on," and what has your work taught you from there?
Jennifer Goldman-Wetzler:: When I was a junior in college, I had the opportunity to study abroad, and I knew I had wanted to study in Jerusalem, because I'm drawn to these places of intense conflict, and I don't know if there's any place in the world where there's as intense a sense of conflict as in the city of Jerusalem, where you've got [00:10:00] many of the world's major religions kind of vying for the same piece of land. I studied there for a year, and took part in some dialogs that were just getting off the ground between Israelis and Palestinians at the time, and learned a tremendous amount, and ended up then continuing that work through a couple of different grassroots movements when I was in graduate school, [00:10:30] bringing together teachers, Palestinian and Israeli, Arab and Jewish teachers who were writing a joint textbook, where they were describing the same, talk about stories, they told the same historical event from two different points of view on the same page in their textbook that they created, so it was a pretty amazing project.
Then I also worked with a group [00:11:00] of Israeli teenage girls and Palestinian teenage girls and Americans who came together in the states, and I helped facilitate [inaudible 00:11:11]. That was one of the seminal moments for me, yep.
Kyle Davis: I mean obviously, like these are very extreme cases of conflict resolution, or at least starting the dialog, so to speak. From there, when you go on and you do your work, [00:11:30] how is it that something maybe so trivial, if we're going to maybe switch gears for a moment and go to business for an example, how can something so trivial then just spiral out into a real kind of battle of the workplace?
Jennifer Goldman-Wetzler:: What I know to be true about conflict is that the processes and the ways that [00:12:00] it unfolds are basically very similar. By the same token, the things that help us get unstuck from difficult conflicts are also the same, whether it's working on the global level, or whether it's working with a CEO and their senior team, or whether it's helping people in a home situation. For example, [00:12:30] what I often do is I work with CEOs and their senior teams who, there's some tension on the team, it's been hard for them to name, they don't want to talk about it, they try to avoid it as best they can, and then they call me in because they know that they need to deal with this issue in order to achieve the results that they're looking to achieve in their business.
They come to that typically because they considered one or [00:13:00] both parties, or all parties at some point have considered what it would be like to walk away from the situation, and they decided that that's not something they're interested in doing, they know they need to work it out. I come in, and we use a process to really listen to what's going on for various different people who are involved, and I sit with them one on one and really hear their story, and then bring them together and ask them to tell each other the parts of their stories [00:13:30] that have been difficult to listen to and to speak. Then I go back and meet with them one on one, so that there's a process of kind of coming out and coming together and going back out and coming back together, but I'm with each of them the whole time throughout that process. Again, I could say much more about how all of that works.
Kyle Davis: I mean, so when you're kind of going through this process, I know that one of your keynotes is called Mastering Conflict, and I believe if I'm reading the byline here, [00:14:00] I think you believe this is something that you did for Google. When you were putting this together and you're talking about ... I think if we backtrack this, it sounds to me like every single time that there is some form of conflict for the most part, it's a lack of communication, it's a lack of understanding. How is it that, maybe to use a [inaudible 00:14:27], how can we get left of boom, [00:14:30] before something becomes a real disaster, how can people become more effective communicators, as to really mitigate conflict? Then the follow up question to that is, once there is a conflict, what are steps, and I think you were starting to hint at this, what are some steps that people can really do to help them work through the process of bringing a resolution to it that's kind of an optimal agreement?
Jennifer Goldman-Wetzler:: [00:15:00] One of the things that I'm writing about in the book that I'm writing now, which is now currently titled Optimal Outcome, it's not out yet, so that title may change, is about the fact that so often, particularly when we're enmeshed in these kinds of difficult conflicts that we're talking about that kind of come up again and again, no matter how many times we try to resolve them, is that we often are not even fully aware [00:15:30] of everything that's driving our own behavior. The same is true for everyone else involved, meaning we may think that what we really care about, and we may say it with all of our best vim and vigor, you know we really want to collaborate with other people, but inside of us there's this little part of us that's actually incredibly competitive, but we're denying [00:16:00] that about ourselves.
We see ourselves as the collaborative leader, and we don't want to give up that image or that story that we're telling ourselves about ourselves. The problem is, the inner self that's in the shadow, that competitive side of us, doesn't know what to do, but it knows that it needs to come out, and so it often comes out in really destructive, unhelpful ways. It [00:16:30] comes out, in the example of someone who says that they're collaborative but really has this inner competitive drive, they might act passive aggressively, or not help someone when they said that they would, or not share information that would be helpful to someone else on their team.
Because of these shadow values, these things that we really care about but we're not willing to admit that we do, [00:17:00] it's not often as simple as it seems to just say what's on our mind and let someone else know where we're at, and then ask them the same, because we're internally denying something that's true, and the same is happening for them. One of the things that I'm talking about I'm helping people with now is really getting clear on what's going on inside of yourself first, before you then come to be in conversation with someone else.
Kyle Davis: [00:17:30] Yeah, I think we talked about this a moment ago, or at least I know I mentioned the line, but it's kind of like the lies that we tell ourself, this repression of what it is that we want to get out of something. I mean, I can think about my time in Silicon Valley, which it's a very funny environment over there and I loved working out there, but at the same point in time, it has its own little unique intricacies that [00:18:00] exist, and maybe they exist elsewhere as well, but you know what's funny is that there, it's all about being collaborative and open and these open workspace environments and this, that, and the other, but at the same point in time, the stereotypical very passive aggressive emails or just everything kind of behind the back versus very up front is a part of the culture writ large.
It's everywhere, not just at [00:18:30] any company I've worked at, just kind of like it's just ingrained, it's like we're open and transparent, but like we're also hyper aggressive, top tier graduate kids from big schools that are trying to get along, but maybe we don't know how to do it, so we're going to be passive aggressive. It's funny, it's an environment that's just really much a push up or push out kind of environment, but it pushes that forward.
Jennifer Goldman-Wetzler:: [00:19:00] Yes, so one thing that I offer when you're facing a situation like that and you're finding it difficult, and you know there's something weird going on but you can't really put your finger on exactly what it is, and you're kind of stuck in it because you're working in it, and you have people who you report to, and you've got colleagues who are all in it as well, is to see, I mean you just really did what I'm suggesting, which is that you named that both [00:19:30] of these things are happening simultaneously, that on the one hand, you have people that are all about collaboration and open workspace, and on the other hand, you have people who are incredibly competitive and aggressive and go after what they want, and that's who they hire.
You have entire companies full of these very same kinds of people, type A personalities for example, and to simply acknowledge that that is going on can [00:20:00] shift the situation, because if you only acknowledge the piece that's in the light that everyone wants to talk about, which is we are collaborative and we're all there to help each other, and you push down the part that's actually we're incredibly competitive, each one of us is often out just for him or herself, but when we collaborate, then we can use that competitive way of being to our advantage as a team, [00:20:30] if you acknowledge that they both can exist and actually do exist simultaneously inside of each person to varying degrees, not everyone is walking around with it 50/50 split between collaboration and competition, but they do exist to some degree most likely in all of us, and if you can acknowledge that, you can break through some of that people unwilling to admit that they've got that competitive side.
[00:21:00] Because the unwillingness to admit it means that it's completely un-discuss-able, and the passive aggressive behavior is the only choice.
Kyle Davis: I think kind of with that, you know we can use passive aggressive behavior as the binary choice with kind of an open work environment, and really kind of the culprit being competitive nature of a lot of these individuals, but even from there, it's kind of like these things that we don't want to discuss, you know [00:21:30] a project isn't going as planned, but we don't want to talk about the negatives, we just want to talk about the positives, or something like that, or, "Hey, we have this great employee that was awesome to bring on. Unfortunately, we don't want to talk about how disruptive they're being." There's a lot of these kind of things that are known unknowns, or known knowns, but they just go un-discussed.
What is it, like I'm personally a person who's [00:22:00] all about radical transparency and I'll just bluntly say what's on my mind, maybe it's because I spent too much time in New York, and it gets people, catches them a little bit off guard, but I feel at the end of the day, it makes things a little bit easier to digest. Maybe someone who's not so brash or an organization that's kind of slowly unfolding like an onion, what can they do to really help foster those conversations, and opening that dialog?
Jennifer Goldman-Wetzler:: One [00:22:30] thing I say in the book is that when you realize that either yourself and/or someone else that you're in conflict with or are having a difficult time with, when you realize that there are shadow values at play, things that you or someone else just haven't been willing to admit, sometimes it can be helpful to name it and call it out, and other times it's not necessary, and in fact might actually do more harm than good. [00:23:00] For example, if I come to realize that someone who says they're a collaborative leader, coming back to our example from before, someone who says they're a collaborative leader really has a very strong competitive undercurrent, and I come to realize that because I think about, "Well, where did they grow up, where did they go to school, what's their background, what's their history, what kinds of messages did they probably receive when they were [00:23:30] growing up or before they got to this job, or even now that they're here, what kinds of messages are they receiving about what's okay and not okay to do and say?"
What that does, even just my acknowledging that they may have competition as a shadow value inside of them that they're pushing down, they're not willing to admit it for themselves, I don't need to walk over to them and say, "Hey bud, I think you really are a very competitive person," because it's not going to be helpful for me to say [00:24:00] that. What it is helpful for me to do is to honor it in them, even without necessarily telling them that that's what I am doing. This is a way that we free ourselves from conflict, because there's no getting into it with them, we're just freeing ourselves by saying, "Wow, you know I see now that what's driving that person is probably some competitive nature that he's not willing to admit to himself, and I get it and that's okay. [00:24:30] I'm going to figure out what I can do to take as constructive action as I can with him, and I've raised my empathy for him."
Again, coming back to the theme of stories, when we're able to tell ourselves a story about someone else that leaves us experiencing empathy for that person, the grip of that conflict goes away instantaneously.
Kyle Davis: [00:25:00] Kind of like shifting gears now, I mean I'm reading your bio and it's reminding me to ask some questions, and I think too often sometimes when we talk about some of this stuff, people want to paint it into a negative light, and I think it's all very positive, but let's shift to something that I think is super positive, and that's optimizing organizational vitality and really maybe even changing the culture and everything else. When you're working in that realm and you're going through that path, what are some things that [00:25:30] companies are acknowledging about themselves before they undertake that journey? Then from there, what are just kind of generally speaking some foundational steps that they take to really help them in that process to become much more optimized and more attuned and alive, so to speak?
Jennifer Goldman-Wetzler:: Well, there's a bunch of things that you want organizations to do in order to optimize their organizational health and vitality. As [00:26:00] an organizational psychologist, the way that I think about this is at varying different levels of the organization. When we're talking about a top team, we can look at what are the behaviors that the head of the organization, say the CEO, is modeling for the rest of the team, how does the CEO show up? Then we can look at the team dynamic on that senior team. Say, we have a team of eight [00:26:30] people, including the CEO, what is the group dynamic in that team, how do people treat each other, what expectations do they have of each other, what commitments do they make to each other, what kinds of requests do they make of each other, and do they make commitments and do they make requests of each other, or are they all just nicey-nice and kind of off in their own silos doing their own thing?
We're looking at the level of the team process, as well as at each individual leader, like I talked about, looking at the CEO and how that CEO is modeling [00:27:00] behavior for the rest of the team, but each one of those team members is also modeling behavior for each one of their teams that they oversee.
Kyle Davis: To stop you right there real quick, I mean it sounds to me like it starts kind of from the top down, and I think that's a cliched thing to say, but if the CEO for instance is requesting that people on their team do one thing, but they model a different behavior, how does that conflict, which really it is, [00:27:30] how does that impact the team as a whole, or overall performance, and then what happens when that CEO begins to model the behavior that they actually want?
Jennifer Goldman-Wetzler:: What you're describing happens all the time, because humans are human and we're not perfect, and we do things that we wish we didn't, and we say things that we would like to say are true but are not necessarily yet true about how we function and how we are. [00:28:00] When a leader isn't modeling what they know they need to be doing, it of course can cause all kinds of confusion and upset on the team, because team members might expect the CEO to do XYZ based on what he or she told them they were going to do, and then they don't do it, and it causes confusion and sometimes resentment or upset. Ways to mitigate that are typically either if you have a very [00:28:30] self-aware leader, you have a CEO who understands that there's been this disalignment or disconnect between what they're saying and how they're behaving, and they can close that gap through a series of actions that they'll take to try to close that gap.
Sometimes, often we're not all that self-aware, and we have blind spots. I'll help a team do a 360 on each individual leader or on the team as a whole to say, "What are [00:29:00] the things that are going well, what are the strengths of this leader or this team, and what are the places where this leader or this team could be doing things more effectively?", and out of that interviewing of all the people on the team, you get a sense, and what I do is I feed that back to the leader. In this case, I would feed that back to the CEO and say, "Hey, take a look, you know here's how people appreciate you, and here's what people would like to see you doing differently, what do you say about this?"
Out of that conversation, we'll then [00:29:30] create one or two big goals that the CEO can have to help close that gap between what they're saying they want to be doing and what they're actually doing, and what impact they're having on other people, and those kinds of actions can run the gamut. I could talk more about that too.
Kyle Davis: I know we could talk about, I could talk about that for hours, I've worked for some pretty interesting people who, they want you to come super prepared for a meeting, and yet they just kind of show [00:30:00] up with some hand-written notes, and you're like, "How prepared are you? Oh, you're not? This is frustrating, because I put a lot of work into this."
Jennifer Goldman-Wetzler:: A double standard, yeah.
Kyle Davis: Well that, and it's just like, you know I mean not to get too personal on it, but when it is a double standard, and maybe it's just me, but somebody who values their time and really wants to have a very solutions-oriented conversation, [00:30:30] where I come out of a conversation or come out of a meeting with some decisions made and some action items created, instead of having a more informal discussion where nothing comes up out of it, it's incredibly frustrating and it almost hampers any progress, versus 15 minutes of prep prior would have [00:31:00] made a 45-minute conversation much more beneficial I think for all parties involved.
Jennifer Goldman-Wetzler:: Right. What you're talking about, I think, is really about how do you give feedback to somebody who there's a power imbalance between you, how do you give feedback to somebody like that, and how do you request changes in that person's behavior?
Kyle Davis: Managing up, yeah.
Jennifer Goldman-Wetzler:: Right, I mean it [00:31:30] can be very challenging and very difficult to do that. One of the things that, one of the benefits I think of some of the work that I do by helping people get that feedback, is that there's a buffer, which is basically me and the report that I write for people between the two of them, so that when I'm giving the feedback to somebody, they don't have to have the conversation directly with [00:32:00] someone who it might not come out in the way that they would want it to come out, and they're protected by anonymity. What I do is, I interview, you know let's say six to eight people surrounding the person who I'm delivering the feedback to, and I promise anonymity to those six to eight people, so they can say whatever they need to say that's really on their heart and their minds, and know that if it's a theme, if it's something that I hear from more than three people, [00:32:30] it'll get told to their leader and they don't have to worry about any possible negative repercussions on them personally.
There's something that's very nice about having that buffer in place, and also it gives the leader a chance to take in the feedback in a way where they don't have to be defensive, there's no reason for them to defend against it, or there's less reason for them to defend against it when they're sitting with me as a coach, versus when [00:33:00] they might be face to face with someone who's saying something that's difficult for them to hear, so they can really take it in and they can think about it, and then we'll kind of come back around to it, and I hold them accountable to it, but also bringing a sense of empathy for them that they may be hearing something that's difficult for them to hear, but that ultimately they're on the line to consider changing their behavior.
Kyle Davis: I think you mentioned something that was there with regards to accountability, and I think this would be a great place for us to wrap [00:33:30] up, but how important is it when you come out of these meetings, and maybe let's say it's a one on one discussion between a manager and a subordinate, or you know maybe they met with you and it's a managing up kind of situation, but how important is it for the accountability component? I mean, I obviously, probably intuitively say it's hugely important, but if people say they're going to make a change, and then two, [00:34:00] three weeks later, it just kind of fizzles and burns out, what does that do for the organization, but conversely, what does it do for an organization if that accountability is held throughout and it's sustained?
Jennifer Goldman-Wetzler:: Well, I think you probably have seen this yourself.
Kyle Davis: I have.
Jennifer Goldman-Wetzler:: You have a sense of how this goes, but it can be extremely damaging when people are told, you know in some ways it's worse to be told that we're working on something, and then [00:34:30] not know what happened with that project at all, and not be told, "Here's the update, here's what we're working on, here's how we think it's gone, or we're still getting feedback from you, how's it going for you?" It can be worse to implement something and then not update people, than to try to implement anything at all. I would advise against engaging in any kind of change initiative that you're not committing to following through 100%, and I think to answer the opposite of the [00:35:00] same coin, when you engage in a change process and you're really committed and you communicate clearly with people about what you're trying to do and what the outcome has been, whether positive, negative, or some combination, that can really tend to motivate people.
Kyle Davis: I think it's important too, and for what you just said, it'll really help I think open it, but when undergoing change, we're not talking about just on the personal level, it might be a process change or a procedure change, or it might be implementing [00:35:30] a new software solution or something else like that, so just change in general, kind of having that open loop feedback is far more beneficial than kind of just surprising it on everybody.
Jennifer Goldman-Wetzler:: Right, and you always want to over-communicate about what you're doing. So many times, we think as leaders that we've told people something is happening because we sent it out in an email or we talked about it at the all-hands meeting, and in fact people [00:36:00] are not at the all-hands meeting or they missed that email or they saw it but they didn't read it. You want to over-communicate and use all the various different communication channels that you have available to you to do that, whether email, in person, in one on ones, in small groups and teams, and then at your all-hands meetings, so that you really are sending a consistent message across all the various [00:36:30] communication channels that you have available. If something is important, you can't say it often enough, has been my experience.
Kyle Davis: Over-communicate people, yeah?
Jennifer Goldman-Wetzler:: Yeah.
Kyle Davis: Well, I think that's a good place for us to wrap up, since I'm an over-communicator, just because I like to hear the sound of my own voice. Yeah, kind of to your point, you never know what channel someone is actually [00:37:00] monitoring, it could be an internal chat solution, it could be the newsletter email, it could be the one on one, but you don't know what the touchpoint is where it's going to stick, so it's best to hit on all channels.
Jennifer Goldman-Wetzler:: Slack, whatever it is.
Kyle Davis: Yeah, love Slack, love Slack. Okay, cool, well hey, look, if you all want to have Jennifer Goldman-Wetzler come and speak for you, you can do so by contacting GDA speakers, the number is 214-420-1999. Other than that, [00:37:30] Jennifer, thank you so much for joining us.
Jennifer Goldman-Wetzler:: Thanks so much, Kyle.
Kyle Davis: Thank you.